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Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Roy Rainford
When trying to open Photoshop CS5.1 after updating to El Capitan a message says I need Legacy Java SE6.
Is it OK to download this?

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Euan Williams
Hi Roy. This is from my Nov 2nd (00.21) reply to your earlier El Capitan questions.
<< If you have Oracle’s Java installed (and it shows up in System Preferences), make sure by clicking on it and following the menu item that is eventually revealed for Update status, that you have the latest Java version running. For the Apple Java “left-out” file that Apple offer on system installation because you are using CS5, CS6 etc. Just re-download and install that. >>

Apple are offering you their "left-out" Java file without which CS 5.1 won't run successfully. When Apple offer you the legacy Java they include a link to an explanation file.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Roy Rainford
Thanks Euan. Sorry I forgot about your earlier comment. Have downloaded the Java file but installing it stalled and crashed the iMac! Will try again tomorrow.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Euan Williams
Roy, it seems from your steady stream of reports of constant crashes that you are going to have to bite the bullet and install your software "clean" -- that will mean an erased partition, and include clean El Capitan and your Adobe CS5, and exclude all those lovely little utilities that seemed so seductive back then. My CS5.1 and El Capitan co-exist happily together with Apple's Java, and have always done so. Make sure you have all necessary backups including Mail access prefs etc. beforehand.

If these are not the only apps to crash, and the situation is more pervasive, then you will have to look at your drive integrity and RAM as first on the suspects list.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Roy Rainford
Euan, I will have to give the 'clean install' serious thought - reluctantly because it will be a major job for me. Is there a link to a step-by-step 'Idiot's Guide' from start to finish which I can print before I start the dreaded procedure? My iMac is a Mid 2010, 3.2 Ghz, 8GB of Memory, 1TB Internal HD plus an external 2TB drive (USB) with two partitions, one for Time Machine and the other partition with a bootable back-up. I have another external 1TB drive (FireWire) with a bootable back-up as a 'belt and braces' approach. The iMac HD has 546 GB available, Time Machine has 457 GB and the external back-ups have each got 552 GB available.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Euan Williams
Hi Roy
If your issue can be fixed by simply trashing appropriate Preference files then that would be the simplest course of action. If your crashes only occur in one App, that is where I would start. Preferences end in “.plist” and typically also have the software reference e.g. “com.adobe.InDesign.plist” — look for them in the top level of your drive > Library > Preferences, or (especially CS prefs) User > Roy > Library > Preferences. To reach your User Library click on the top of the screen “Go” menu and press the Option key.

Preferences will renew themselves automatically on App restart afterwards, but you will have to re-establish your personal preferences which for the CS Suite might be quite complex. Make cmd + shift + 4 screenshots of your pref. choices to help with this.
———

Otherwise: copy, read, mark, learn and inwardly digest this (?preposterously) detailed screed.

No one is an idiot, but many users don’t think things through and hope for the best. Because in System update and corrupt data matters "quick 'n dirty" short cuts and "can't be bothered, should be fine..." will come back to bite you, often bloodily, before long - (and as fixes can take a very long time), it’s best to do the job properly without delay, and nip weirdness in the bud.

NB: Copying everything to the Trash is NOT the same as Erasing a disk or partition with Disc Utility.

NB: Think. Be systematic. Do nothing in a hurry. Sleep on it. Go for a walk.

NB: Remember to *** DE-REGISTER *** Adobe’s CS software from any installation you are about to erase. Adobe support are helpful if you do something silly here.

NB: Installing good data on top of bad data is a recipe for disaster, and only makes matters worse. As it is seldom worth trying to pin down particular causes when errors have built up over time, to aim for Clean and Fresh is the sensible course.
———

Basic principle
Start with a clean (erased) Drive or Partition and the freshest Installers you can possibly get by downloading them from the App Store or the software MANUFACTURER on the web (be wary of “Hey! Look! Download MegaCorp’s app cheaper here!” invitations). Don’t download any old utility without good evidence that it works well.

Second principle
Set up your drive so that in the future you can easily ‘fix’ issues without the present trauma.

Having several partitions on your internal drive is very important. I use standard 250GB partitions everywhere possible (four 250GB partitions = one 1TB drive) which means that any partition can be copied or cloned to any other, and it doesn’t take a night and a day to do it. Your iMac doesn’t have USB3 so cloning is particularly slow. Right down as far as a small (250GB) SSD I still use two partitions each about 125GB. One is for System, one for data. If there is a problem I can erase the data partition and install a fresh system, etc.

1. Establish which your ‘cleanest’ Clone is
start up your iMac from each of your bootable backups to see if any of them is able to get past the current crash behaviour. If one of them is able to do this, that should be your best data “source”, which does NOT necessarily mean that it is in all respects “Good”. If none of your clones passes this crash test then life gets more difficult — but not impossible.

2. Data
Make sure you have backed up any more recent data.

3. Passwords
Make sure you have written down ALL your current passwords in a little black book and have checked that they work or how you can change them if not.

4. Installers
Gather together all your Installers that can’t be downloaded from the producer’s web site or the App store. These might include any early DVD installers for Adobe’s CS suite.

5. Mail
Take screenshots (cmd + shift + 4, then press space bar and click mouse or trackpad) to record all your Mail preference settings.

DEEP BREATH time:
You will need to erase the partition on your iMac (or just one of them if you have more than one partition). It would be sensible eventually to also erase any other partitions too. As you have just the single 1TB partition on your internal drive, this means starting up from an external drive. Ideally, I would Erase not just the partition, but the whole drive including invisible partitions (yes, OSX Emergency start-up partitions are invisible, and malware might lurk in invisible areas). Do this by selecting the parent which might look like this ”Seagate ABC2322534256 Media”. See next paragraph.

If both your current internal and external drives are “dodgy”, it would be useful to visit your local PC World or Currys and get a new drive (WD’s pocket Passport Ultra 1TB is a good choice for about £50), then to use Disc Utility to REFORMAT it for Mac OS, and finally partition it into those four 250GB partitions. Install El Capitan from the App store on this new drive and use that for your initial start up. In the end the extra clean drive will save a lot of effort and grief as you won’t need to erase drive or partition with possibly valuable data on it.

6. System Installer Backup
When you download El Capitan 10.11.1 from the App store, it will probably place itself in the Applications folder (look for “Install…” rather than El Capitan or OSX 10.11… Make a backup copy of this, preferably on one of those fresh partitions. This installer deletes itself after installation if it's left in your Applications folder, so a back-up elsewhere will save a lot of download irritation.

7. System install
On your freshly erased internal iMac partition, install El Capitan from your App store download.

8. Applications
Now install (from ‘clean’ installers) your major Apps, e.g. Adobe CS5.1 suite (don’t forget to register it.)

9. Setting up
It is best to set up everything you can from fresh rather than using Migration Assistant because the data you migrate may be suspect. This is particularly true of Applications and preference files. Migrating network settings can help.

10. Anti-virus
Although Macs seldom suffer actual harm from the wickednesses of others, it can happen, and you can unwittingly pass on these things to your PC-using friends. Anti-virus software won’t stop all the miseries, but can help. I use the (free) “Sophos AV Home Edition” which is the same as the paid-for version, but doesn’t include dis-infestation help. It’s unobtrusive, fast and efficient.

11. Copying from back-ups
Check the files that previously caused difficulty to see if they now work properly and copy them back bit by bit to keep an eye on success.

12. Fresh clone
Once you have a proven “good” installation don’t forget to clone it -- to a freshly erased partition :)

13. So let's hope it's just the Preferences...

If you have further anxieties get my ‘phone number from Mick Burrell or your local WaMug rep. and call me - but think it all through properly first, please.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Roy Rainford
Many thanks Euan for your comprehensive reply. I have printed it and will start with Preferences for Photoshop CS5.1.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Tony Still
Roy,

Euan mentioned disk integrity. This is a good point and I would urge anyone having multiple "strange" problems to check for disk corruption: it's not common but it is serious when it happens. The disk structure is very complex but checking/repairing it is easy. If it's damaged and not repaired the situation will gradually get worse until it can't be rectified without major surgery. To be clear, I'm talking about software/data issues here, not hardware.

Find Disk Utility in the Utilities folder (in Applications), or use Spotlight, and launch (run) it. In El Capitan, there is just the one option: Select your HD in the left margin of DU's window (called Macintosh HD unless you've changed it) and click the First Aid button in the DU toolbar. That's it. The process will probably take several minutes and your Mac will be very slow whilst it's in progress (I recommend the traditional 'go and make a cup of tea' until it's complete). DU will probably find nothing or maybe find and fix something. Either way, you then have a firm foundation on which to investigate any remaining problems.

I would personally then seek out any system-extension/enhancement or system maintenance utilities and uninstall them. If there are any that you really, really must have, update them to versions that have been specifically updated (or validated) for El Capitan. Many of these utilities mess with complex OS X mechanisms that Apple never meant to be public; some of the authors do not fully understand what they are doing, some of the mechanisms (regarded by Apple as private property, remember) change between OS X releases - either way they can be the source of all manner of problems.

I had an outbreak of such problems about two years ago. I won't point fingers but there was a system monitoring utility on my Dashboard that I had completely forgotten (for several years) was there. When I removed it in search of the source, my problems stopped.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Roy Rainford
Thank you Tony. I ran Disk Utility a few weeks ago and Permissions were ok so didn't click First Aid. Will have another check on that and then consider uninstalling utilities as you suggest. Also dealing with Preferences as per Euan's comments above and I have in mind the comment from Mick in the other discussion on El Capitan saying: "When 10.11.2 is released, Apple will release a Combo update"...etc.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Euan Williams
Tony makes good points, especially about those intriguing but now forgotten little utilities. Checking the data structure and resilience of your drive should be a normal part of your Mac's health and safety. Do you, Roy, know which these are? Can you decide what is corruption and what is a poorly written utility?

Given how difficult it may well be for you to hunt down the last vestiges of pesky utilities and apps (yes, I know there are utilities that are supposed to do that for you), quite apart from the real possibility that you may throw out important parts of the OSX environment, you will find it a lot simpler and far more reliable to simply do a clean install on a freshly erased partition and then install as many of your apps from their installers (fresh) as possible, rather than migrating your stuff wholesale (including all those disagreeable bits and bobs with their own fleet of upset dependencies that Tony rightly castigates).

I am concerned, too, about Roy's notion (probably not what Mick was proposing) that just banging an update on top of unknown problems will miraculously fix anything. It is very likely that nothing of the sort will result. Apple builds and tests their OS on the basis of known good foundations. If your foundations are wobbly it is unlikely that Apple can produce an update to improve your position - not everything Users experience is Apple's fault. Sort your system and drives out first. You should not install 10.11.2, combo or otherwise, until you have done so. Please think of this as a seriously meant reality check.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Roy Rainford
Thank you Euan. Message received and understood! No I don't know those utilities so thanks for the warning. I can't help feeling that I might make things worse by going "under the bonnet". Perhaps I have given the wrong impression of multiple crashes and will restate the situation on my iMac. The "fun" started when I moved from Mavericks to Yosemite. Before that things were running fairly smoothly on my main software of Lightroom 5 and Photoshop CS 5.1. After reading good reviews about LR6 I upgraded then read that El Capitan was more stable than Yosemite so upgraded to that OS. Now found that PS CS 5.1 didn't work and I can't install Legacy Java SE6 which is needed for my out-of date PS. Now using LR 6.1.1 (without crashing) and have PS Elements 14 as a way of finishing my image processing. So, before I do any more tinkering or attempt a major clean install, which frankly I don't relish, I feel that although I will miss PS CS 5.1 (but not too much), it's time to say 'goodbye' to an old 'friend' and work with LR and Elements. Yes defeatist but then I would remain sane and happy!

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Euan Williams
Hi Roy,
thank you for the time-line reminder.

I run Photoshop CS5 (version 12.0.4 dating from 31 March 2011 which is, I think CS 5.1) — and have done so pre-Mavericks, and on Mavericks, Yosemite and El Capitan without the slightest murmur of trouble. I don’t use Lightroom, but find it hard to believe that LR has any particular OSX foibles, and I haven’t read of anything particular in the relevant literature.

Apple’s legacy Java is installed here, as well as Oracle’s Java 8 which I keep up to date.

Your time-line suggests to me that there is an underlying issue which would be almost impossible for you to find, whatever it may be, and seems to have increasingly bad effects on your set-up.

So my suggestion (which you can reject) is that you make a clean (erased) partition on an external drive and first install El Capitan on that, followed by a fresh install of Photoshop and Lightroom. If these installations work then the problem lies elsewhere. It may well be convenient in time terms (if not financially) to spend £50 on a 1TB drive, reformat it for Mac, and partition it as suggested if only to reduce the shock-horror misery.

There is a danger that if you just carry on, with or without LR and PS you will be beset with more difficulty whatever software you use.

I previously offered to speak with you on the ‘phone (Mick or another Committee member will give you my number if you ask and refer to this post) but no call so far. Check Mick’s Wamug meetings email for Dorchester, we are having a session this Tuesday 10th November at 7.30pm on Affinity Photo and Designer which might suit you better than PS Elements — but even they may not prevent a slow spiral into chaos.

Time to bite the bullet.

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Tony Still
Roy,
Disk Utility's First Aid addresses a different set of potential problems than Permissions.

Disk permissions is about which users and processes have permission to access which files and folders (remembering that OS X has privileged processes that are usually shielded from users to avoid accidents and malicious software). In the early days of OS X, various software installers had the habit of changing those permissions in unfortunate ways, leading to a variety of problems. In the last few years (and I'm being contentious here) repairing permissions has become less useful; it's actually hidden away as an option in El Capitan.

First Aid is about checking the data structures that control which bits of which files and folders are where on the disk itself. A bad crash or a faulty utility that chooses to insert itself in the low-level disk handling can cause errors in all sorts of places (OS X does some very clever things in the background to optimise these structures* and they need to be absolutely correct). It' could be thought of as the 'how' rather than the 'what' of storing things on the disk.

Having been burned, I am particularly keen on making sure that the disk structure is good but I recommend it whenever there are strange, apparently unrelated or new misbehaviours from the Mac.

*For example, cleaning up files so Macs rarely need their disks defragmenting (unlike other well-known operating systems) :-)

Re: Photoshop CS5.1 after El Capitan

Avatar Roy Rainford
Thanks Euan and Tony for the additional comments. It seems Euan that you have kept your Photoshop CS5 up-to-date being on version 12.0.4 whereas I haven't and remain on version 5.1. That could account for you being trouble-free and my crashes. During the past two days I have processed several raw images through Lightroom and Elements without a crash. I plan to continue with this work flow next week, steering clear of Photoshop CS5 and see if I remain crash-free. It may then be wise to uninstall PS CS5 and any associated bits and pieces. Thank you for mentioning Affinity which I bought (at a discount) a few weeks ago. It does seem a possible alternative to PS and I will keep it in reserve but Lightroom and Elements will do all I want these days.
I ran Disk Utility's First Aid two days ago Tony and got a tick in a small box at the end of the procedure. This may have helped in the trouble-free past two days. Thanks again for mentioning that.
 
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